Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 19, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Wolf

No no no, let's not make the game harder. If it's too easy, then go to HM. I think the difficulty level is fine the way it is. Some people prefer to get the mission done quickly and get ran through it so let's not take that way from them, and that includes in Guild Wars 2.

The issue with "go to HM" is that HM is still too easy. People run Hard Mode too. In fact, for some missions like Imperial Sanctum, Hard Mode is easier. If you prefer to get things done fast and easy, then games such as GW, are not for you, games like Diablo 2, DOOM, etc. where you blow millions of enemies to smithereens in seconds is a game for you and those who like to get things done faster. Although, for you, I suggest a game like Tetris, where there is no end and it doesn't matter where you leave off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

CoF can be ran, Shards of orr can be ran, Ooze pit can be ran, kathandrax can be run....All of tyria can be ran by a perma SF sin. You get the point.

/notsigned kthxbai.

Useless ideas everyday on guru *sigh*

The difference between those dungeons you mentioned *which I think should be changed to be harder to run* and A Time for Heroes. Is that those are dungeons, ATFH is a mission, AND it's the last mission. kthxbai. Useless comments and trolls everyday on guru *sigh*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Wolf

No thanks, that was the worst thing they ever did. It's much better when the end-game boss is RIGHT THERE. That's the point of the game, isn't it? To get to the end boss? After all those other missions (especially Prophecies since it has the most) it's much better to have the end-game boss right there with nothing else.

Ok. Not to be mean Tender Wolf, but I HATE your way of thinking with difficulty and how "a game should be."
The endgame boss being right there is not how it should be. I actually prefer Hell's Precipice because you have a real mission to do other then a 5 minute hack-slash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrett

the end boss isnt actually meant to be difficult
Because hes just the last boss u see in game
its not like a single player game where the last boss has to be there hardest
the real bosses are ones like

mallyx
kanaxai
Urgoz
and few other

I'll expand that list to include all those I think which bosses:

Prophecies:
Glint
Lich
Rotscale
Justicar Hablion
Doppleganger *although idk how one would make someone who has the same build as you harder

*

Factions:
Kuunavang
Shiro
(personally, I think a few more "hard" *aka balanced build* bosses are needed, Factions is mostly just mob fighting...)

Nightfall:
Abaddon
Varesh
The Hunger

Eye of the North:
Great Destroyer
Hierophant Burntsoul
Nornbear

That is actually a list of enemies that should be harder then they are, imo of course. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

But that's truly besides the point. I must point out that the Disc of Chaos, the Great Destroyer's underling is harder then the Great Destroyer himself, that sounds wrong in my opinion.

Quote:

just because its the last missions main enemy doesnt mean has to be strongest of all
and why should they spend time nerfing petty builds or buffing things not needed

when they could be spending time working on GW2

dont like the game dont play it!

1. Just because it's the last mission's main enemy doesn't mean it has to be the strongest. Because the last boss is a storyline boss and the "head" enemy means he should be stronger then the others in the storyline, and moreso the side big baddies.

2. They should spend time nerfing/buffing in order to keep "balance." Sure, they haven't done that grand of a job, but it seems they are finally picking up slack. I may be wrong, hope I'm not, but if that's the case, as long as things change, I'll be happy.

3. They have two teams, one for GW1 one for GW2. Your statement of "they could be spending time working on GW2" is now OBSOLETE. Just like you.

4. I do like the game, I'm sure others who are pro making this harder are too, but just because we think it should/could be harder doesn't mean we shouldn't play a game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

No.No and No agian stop coming up with all these bad ideas if you don't like the runs then don't get ran do the mission.Incinerate Enchantments bad idea for skill suggestion.

This is actually one idea that is semi-good. Not a great suggestion, but not a bad one. At the least, it's a good start. Everything needs work, it's the general concept that needs to be known.

Arkantos · Aug 19, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

all i have to say is alll of the end game bosses are easy. and thats only because people have thought of a way to counter it.

They aren't easy because people make builds to counter them, they're easy because they're just weak. I beat every end-game boss without knowing what skill they used, and they were all quite easy, and I'm sure many, many others have too.

Personally, I don't care about their difficulty in normal mode. Hard mode however, all of the end game bosses should get buffed, so they're actually hard.

Quote:

No.No and No agian stop coming up with all these bad ideas if you don't like the runs then don't get ran do the mission.Incinerate Enchantments bad idea for skill suggestion.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read. First of all, suggesting to buff an end game boss because it can be solo'd is far from a bad idea. Second, try actually reading threads you reply to for once. If you did, you'd notice that the OP said he doesn't care that people are running, he cares about the fact that the boss can be solo'd, which makes sense. End game bosses are supposed to be hard.

Sage Tylos · Aug 19, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Personally, I don't care about their difficulty in normal mode. Hard mode however, all of the end game bosses should get buffed, so they're actually hard.

...the OP said he doesn't care that people are running, he cares about the fact that the boss can be solo'd, which makes sense. End game bosses are supposed to be hard.

First comment there is definitely a good one. I think Tender Wolf was right in stating that there are some casual gamers who would not want the bosses to be uber tough, because that would just be frustrating for someone who just wants to have a little fun. Using this idea or some other buff as a HM only thing would probably be the best way to do it.

The second comment... TYVM! I'm glad someone understands this! I don't hate runners, and I don't give two hoots that some people are chosing to make money by charging 2k a pop to solo him for someone else. What bothers me is the fact that he can be solo'ed in the first place. There's a difference and I'm glad at least one person sees it.

Edit: Spelling

draxynnic · Aug 19, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Hrrmn. On the one hand, I can certainly see the arguments for the endgame bosses to be harder. I suspect the principle is for the main storyline to be relatively accessible to all and that the real challenge is posed by elite areas, but still... most of the boss fights are essentially puzzles. The Lich is simple enough if you can avoid killing him while not on the Bloodstone (although, as it appears he needs to be perfectly positioned, this can be easier said than done). Abaddon and the Destroyer are really just cases of being able to survive what is essentially environmental effects (the burning from the Destroyer's lava and the daze, damage and knockdowns from Abby).

However...

One thing that makes me glad that they're H/Hable at the moment is relative convenience at getting to the endgame after you've beaten it once or twice. I tend to stockpile things like amulets of the mists and equivalents if I can't think of something to pick up immediately, so I can go back later and get them. For Factions and Nightfall, endgame armour is also a consideration - if you don't have, or forget to bring, the materials for the endgame armour, you'll have to run the final mission all over again. It's irritating enough when you can H/H it, but I'd rather not be looking for a PUG with a 40% failure rate just to acquire a reward I've already earned. (Especially given that given my timezone there may not be people to form a PUG with in the first place.)

This, however, is more of a gripe about the requirement of "re-earning" endgame areas - if there was a way to acquire the various endgame rewards, unlocked after winning the final mission, that didn't require completing the endgame mission all over again, then I'd be more inclined to support a push to make that endgame harder. Possibly through putting an NPC in Kaineng that can transfer people to the balcony where they could reenter the Divine Path, an NPC in the Domain of Anguish outpost that will port you to the Throne of Secrets, placing of the Deldrimnor Chests in Battledepths if all characters in the party had completed Time for Heroes, and possibly accessing the Prophecies endgame through the Vision of Glint.

Certainly, the thought strikes me that doing this for anything equivalent introduced in GW2 may at least slow down the appearance of endboss farmers - one wonders how many of them simply started as ways to make sure they can get back in without much hassle until realising they could profit from it...

pamelf · Aug 19, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

I always found him pretty hard.

JupiterStarWarrior · Aug 19, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

The problem, though, is that people are talking about end-game bosses in general. The original topic, though, is one in particular: The Great Destroyer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xebedinct

Quote:

5

1/4

15

Skill. Removes all enchantments from target foe. For each enchantment removed this way one hex is removed, and each of the target's allies in earshot takes 100 damage, spread out evenly, with a maximum damage of 800.

It would be cooler this way, would screw over Pain Inverter. :P He should have that.

***BECAUSE THE "CHANGES" WERE ACTUALLY POSTED BY THE QUOTED AND NOT BY ME***

I disagree with the changes in the casting time and the recharge time simply because bosses already have a way to halve the casting-time and recharge-time of skills and would, therefore, already be set like that. If you want hex removal on The Great Destroyer, do one, not for each enchantment, or do a maximum of three or five.

The way you got it would be almost nigh-impossible to keep health up (for the monks) after the spike (because that's what that is), AND to counter the degen from burning, AND counter damage from the rest of the destroyers that spawn.

Also, again, people that say that the game is too easy, just remember that you're not the average player; you're what I like to call Elites. I'm okay with that. What I really despise are Elitist: These are people who want to make the game only for them, not for people to sit at home and relax. If you're bored, here's an idea: Set restrictions for yourself. Do The Deep with only eight people instead of 12; Do the Underworld with a party of four (and clear it). Just stop forcing your challenges on other people who just wants to have some fun. If you have beaten the game a million times, OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO BE EASY! You've done it before! But for those who do it for the first time, GUESS WHAT! They've never done it! They don't know the boss as well as you do! This means that they're going to have a harder time to fight the boss than you would. Sure they may have studied on the boss on Wiki (who hasn't), but reading on it and doing it are two different things.

/rant

Age · Aug 19, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

They aren't easy because people make builds to counter them, they're easy because they're just weak. I beat every end-game boss without knowing what skill they used, and they were all quite easy, and I'm sure many, many others have too.

Personally, I don't care about their difficulty in normal mode. Hard mode however, all of the end game bosses should get buffed, so they're actually hard.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read. First of all, suggesting to buff an end game boss because it can be solo'd is far from a bad idea. Second, try actually reading threads you reply to for once. If you did, you'd notice that the OP said he doesn't care that people are running, he cares about the fact that the boss can be solo'd, which makes sense. End game bosses are supposed to be hard.

Where did I say buff and I am mere reinterating what the OP said if you want run then get one or do it yourself.There are several high level missions that can be ran by runner soloor doing with 3 heros.I took paid for run in this mission with my Ele only because the pugs kept failing at it I could of used H/H but it was late and I wasn't in the mood.

What got to me more than anything the skill suggestion as there are enough enchanment removal already.The poster above you agreed with me though.

You want my thoughts on this mission is not that great of design like alot of things in EoTN solo quest oh btw if you can solo The Glacial Griffon and Club of 1000 bears why not this one.

Arkantos · Aug 19, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

What got to me more than anything the skill suggestion as there are enough enchanment removal already.The poster above you agreed with me though.

You want my thoughts on this mission is not that great of design like alot of things in EoTN solo quest oh btw if you can solo The Glacial Griffon and Club of 1000 bears why not this one.

Did not quote first paragraph because I have no idea what it says.

There is absolutely no enchantment removal in ATFH. How is that enough?

I don't know whether to laugh because you're joking or to cry because you're serious. Those 2 bosses are soloable because the quests that they are in are SOLO quests. The quest the great destroyer is not a solo quest, it's the end-game boss that should require a team. That is why those bosses can be solo'd, and this one shouldn't be able to.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 19, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Did not quote first paragraph because I have no idea what it says.

There is absolutely no enchantment removal in ATFH. How is that enough?

I don't know whether to laugh because you're joking or to cry because you're serious. Those 2 bosses are soloable because the quests that they are in are SOLO quests. The quest the great destroyer is not a solo quest, it's the end-game boss that should require a team. That is why those bosses can be solo'd, and this one shouldn't be able to.

Well, if all we want is an enchantment removal, then why not add a Destroyer of Thoughts to the random "sidekick" destroyers that pop up. Increase the chance of runners forcing a /resign on the team.

Although it won't really reduce the amount of runners, it won't kill teams, and it won't be an absolute. For NM add the mesmer destroyer into the randomness, for HM add a enchant removal skill to the Great Destroyer.

Sounds fair, not that much harder for teams and reduces running ability.

Tender Wolf · Aug 20, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Ok. Not to be mean Tender Wolf, but I HATE your way of thinking with difficulty and how "a game should be."
The endgame boss being right there is not how it should be. I actually prefer Hell's Precipice because you have a real mission to do other then a 5 minute hack-slash.

That's fine, I respect your opinion. Not everyone prefers to play it that way though. And in the case of the Great Destroyer, you can't even interrupt him without getting your butt kicked half the time because of some skill he uses (only played GWEN once so don't know what it's called). Pain Inverter is really the only thing that somewhat works on him, but it only deals 80 max dmg back to him (which if you ask me should be changed depending on the level but I won't get into that).

Everyone has a different view on how a game should be, and I much prefer the Factions, Nightfall, and GWEN endings where you have the boss right there. That's what you've worked up to, no point in screwing around with more of the same monsters from the last two or three missions to get to what you've been after the whole time. It just makes more sense to me to put the final boss right there alone with a few of his allies next to him (like Shiro'ken, graven monoliths, and Destroyers).

Tyla · Aug 20, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Hard mode, and three skills kill him easily.

[glyph of renewal][pain inverter][savage shot]

The rest of the mission is just clearing out a few destroyers.

It only takes 2 savage shots to take im down in hard mode, and in normal mode, I don't know, 3?

Hyper Cutter · Aug 20, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Sure, just merge the two last missions (Depths of Destruction and A Time for Heroes). Just as you needed to go through all Hell's Precipice before you encounter the Lich.

Please no, both are enough of a pain (goddamn Norn portion of DD... and Disc of Chaos needs to be nerfed. Damn thing's almost invincible) as they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Possibly through putting an NPC in Kaineng that can transfer people to the balcony where they could reenter the Divine Path,

I still don't know why that upper level exists, especially since you can't get back up to it...

draxynnic · Aug 20, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

So people who've won the game can be shown off? *shrug*

But yes, it does seem pointless as it is. With a means of getting back up, they could have even put the armourcrafters and possibly the adepts up there in the first place and removed them from the Divine Path entirely.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 20, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

They aren't easy because people make builds to counter them, they're easy because they're just weak. I beat every end-game boss without knowing what skill they used, and they were all quite easy

You beat the great destroyer on first try without researching the mission and getting a suitable build?
Why do I think you're not really telling the truth here? Or were you accompanied by guildies who had done the mission before and were packing suitable builds?

Quote:

Personally, I don't care about their difficulty in normal mode. Hard mode however, all of the end game bosses should get buffed, so they're actually hard.

No boss is hard with tailored builds. Case in point: I was finding Cyndr the Mountain Heart very difficult to kill with H/H's until I found out that you could simply ignore the whole barrel-carrying BS and degen her to death from inside the cave.

Quote:

First of all, suggesting to buff an end game boss because it can be solo'd is far from a bad idea.

I think it is a silly idea - anything can be beaten with a tailored build. Giving TGD godly enchant removal is a counter to invincimonks, and simply invites a new gimmick build to kill him.

At the bottom of it all is the very limited "rock-scissors-bag" game design of GW, and that all skills which limit damage to a % of health, as well as all skills which makes the player impossible to target with spells, are fundamentally broken.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 20, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You beat the great destroyer on first try without researching the mission and getting a suitable build?
Why do I think you're not really telling the truth here? Or were you accompanied by guildies who had done the mission before and were packing suitable builds?

I don't think he is lying. I beat lich with henchmen without knowing that I even had to kill him on the bloodstone. I just hacked away, kept out of lava, and killed him. Abaddon was similar, I didn't know any way to easily kill him *back then Reversal of Damage was a big damager against him while he was free*, but still beat him in 9 minutes. It's easy to do these things. The Great Destroyer took me two times because I brought a Broad Head Arrow ranger and he constantly did his little roar and pwned me >.>

Quote:

I think it is a silly idea - anything can be beaten with a tailored build. Giving TGD godly enchant removal is a counter to invincimonks, and simply invites a new gimmick build to kill him.

At the bottom of it all is the very limited "rock-scissors-bag" game design of GW, and that all skills which limit damage to a % of health, as well as all skills which makes the player impossible to target with spells, are fundamentally broken.

So your saying that, if we add a enchant removal to the place, the next gimmick build to fight him will be a perma SF with a monk to cast mending and whatnot to cancel the burning? Just make the enchant removal a "skill" and there is no running him for a while *hopefully* as the biggest running builds ALL have enchantments.

We are not saying there should be no "tailored" build *at least I'm not*, we just don't want the Great Destroyer, or the other "tough" bosses, to be soloable. Make him hard in Hard Mode, teamable-only in Normal Mode *or harder to solo at least, remove the chance of master if getting ran basically and I'll be happy for NM*.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 20, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

The Lich is extremely easy compared to TGD - and wisely so, as ANet placed him at the end of two long and pretty hard missions. You can't put extremely hard challenges at the end of long missions, it'll just annoy players.

And I still don't see what the heck it matters that some gimmick builds can solo TGD. Is there any boss which is not soloable provided you can get to it?

The entire concept of having skills which limit damage to a % of health (e.g. Protective Spirit) and make player untargetable (e.g. Spell Breaker or Shadow Form) is flawed and invite abuse, but the real solution isn't to have bosses circumvent the broken enchant system, but to fix the broken enchant system.
Not that ANet will ever do that, but that'd fix not only the TGD farming problem, but would kill most of the unintuitive farming builds.

Kanyatta · Aug 20, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

(and Disc of Chaos needs to be nerfed. Damn thing's almost invincible)

Wow, I thought I was the only one. It took me a few tries after hard rezzing my entire H/H team way after they were 60'd out to beat the Disc of Chaos, but I beat the Great Destroyer without taking one death and having no knowledge of the skills he used.

Arkantos · Aug 20, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

You beat the great destroyer on first try without researching the mission and getting a suitable build?
Why do I think you're not really telling the truth here? Or were you accompanied by guildies who had done the mission before and were packing suitable builds?

Sorry buddy, but wiki didn't have anything on the great destroyer 7 hours after release, when people (including me) got to the great destroyer. Most of my guildies were sleeping at the time. Just because you don't think it's possible for someone to beat an (easy) boss without researching doesn't mean others can't. Nice try, though.

Quote:

No boss is hard with tailored builds. Case in point: I was finding Cyndr the Mountain Heart very difficult to kill with H/H's until I found out that you could simply ignore the whole barrel-carrying BS and degen her to death from inside the cave.

Not true. Bosses who can deal 500+ damage with a single skill and have massive AoE damage are quite difficult, even with the right build.

Quote:

I think it is a silly idea - anything can be beaten with a tailored build. Giving TGD godly enchant removal is a counter to invincimonks, and simply invites a new gimmick build to kill him.

There's a difference between beating a boss and soloing a boss. But please, try and solo the great destroyer in HM without a single enchantment. I will be very impressed.

Tyla · Aug 20, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Wow, I thought I was the only one. It took me a few tries after hard rezzing my entire H/H team way after they were 60'd out to beat the Disc of Chaos, but I beat the Great Destroyer without taking one death and having no knowledge of the skills he used.

I'm the exact opposite. I personally hate fighting the Great Destroyer, but the Disc of Chaos is nothing that I can't handle.

I still want the combination of these two skills to not autokill him in a few seconds: [savage shot][pain inverter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa

The Lich is extremely easy compared to TGD - and wisely so, as ANet placed him at the end of two long and pretty hard missions. You can't put extremely hard challenges at the end of long missions, it'll just annoy players.

I can agree with this slightly, however, there should be some difficulty in an endgame boss. For example, the ending of Kingdom Hearts II, Xemnas really took the piss for me at first until I figured out how to get past that bit when he starts sapping Sora's life with a clone pushing you back. If you ask me it was a decent challenge, however it was annoying at first.

Age · Aug 20, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Did not quote first paragraph because I have no idea what it says.

There is absolutely no enchantment removal in ATFH. How is that enough?

I don't know whether to laugh because you're joking or to cry because you're serious. Those 2 bosses are soloable because the quests that they are in are SOLO quests. The quest the great destroyer is not a solo quest, it's the end-game boss that should require a team. That is why those bosses can be solo'd, and this one shouldn't be able to.

No.I wasn't quoting your first post just the one you did of mine and it gives a bad imression of the bosses that are in solo quests.I thought Anet really didn't like soloing although it can be done.The point being is how many char do you want to put through this mission.

There are several mission that can be run this just happens to be one of them.That is if you want to pay for it or not.It is just a service nothing more than that.

Quote:

You beat the great destroyer on first try without researching the mission and getting a suitable build?
Why do I think you're not really telling the truth here? Or were you accompanied by guildies who had done the mission before and were packing suitable builds?

He just a got it off of The Guru after someone posted it I beleive Ractoth his guilder lder beat before he did funny though his guild lder beat shire on a dual Ractoth as a Warrior and someone lese in [sms] playing bonding Rit a to beat the The Gates of Madness.I consider this on par with TGD not Abbadon.